if you are interested:
- vineyardusa director berten waggoner writes concerning the importance of theological reflection.
- ken wilson, who oversees the vineyard great lakes region, writes about the theology and practice of the kingdom of God in his article on exploring the vineyard's core values.
- derek morphew, vineyard scholar from south africa, writes about the kingdom and healing the dualism of personal and social ethics.
- then don williams writes about the kingdom both now and not-yet
3 comments:
Maybe you could move them to actually come up with a common understanding of why you collectively believe God commands christians to tithe.
The organization that grants you credentials to speak as a minister implicitly connects the non-paying of tithes with the idea of a "curse" from God.* This by itself out to argue for some coherent reflection and thought about this, especially given that are several Vineyards on the web which summarily impute a lack of sincerity to individuals with questions about this.
*2004 Vineyard statement, footnote about leadership.
interesting. the whole "under a curse from God" thing is certainly surprising, i'll have to take a look at that;
The only questions I ever had about tithing while there were "what is the nature of this curse" and 'how do I know to take this observance from the OT and not . I have three questions now.
The sort of answers I got were "there is something wrong with you [I restate in a simple fashion larger notions], an invitation to go elsewhere, and what amounted to imputations of stupidity [i.e. the light bill has to be paid'. Doctrinally, The Senior pastoral authority will point to Christ's talk with the pharisees, which does nothing to help my first or third question; and does not - though it might seem to - help that much with my second question. I have been turned down there at the fellowship, by your regional overseer, by Kingdom Rain in a request to see the training materials used in VLI. The tape you hand out deals with "gross vs. net" - I question that I never posed.
Wayne Grudem, who I gather is a figure of note in Vineyard circles, disagrees with the exegesis of the passage with the pharisees, and I have not been able to authenticate by sourcing to evidence that the notion that Christ continued ritual giving here is a belief that the Vineyard per se authenticates. There are obvious exegetical issues there that do not seem to be contemplated.
I am agnostic about this matter; though it was a kind of "last straw" among other straws and caused years of distress for me. I do not know how to wrap the idea of "tithing is givng and giving is tithing" around my questions, which I heard from a pastor sent to "help" me. The two sermons locally posted have notions speakers who contradict each other and themselves on key points.
You do not not have in front of you someone pissing and moaning about mistreatment; nor someone ignorant of finances. It is not about you, me, "forgiveness" nor of my hearing things that I do not wish to hear.
The very least thing you can do - you, as a pastor of men - is to commit to pray daily for me for two months about this. Then find out what my 3rd question is, and talk with me - not down to, not past, not at me - but with me. Someone who has invested themselves in my life with God and who even knows what my questions are will have standing to challenge my behaviour and make accusations against it. GIven that this notion is held by you - generic you - to be important, then it follows that there should be some mechanism to ensure that I can "get it" if I am ernest about seeking God. If you do this thing - this praying for me -- I will in return pray for any two things you identify to me daily until the end of the year. If I do not have your trust to be discrete, well, you can anonymize the requests.
I am making this a public thing rather than a private thing for good reason. And I really really will not receive any more private reproof about this.
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